Give and Take-Ravens

18to88: 1. In the hearts of Ravens fans, what drives this rivalry more right now: Indy's recent dominance of the Ravens or the Colts leaving Baltimore? In other words, is this a big game because the Colts have stood in the Ravens way or because of the history of the cities?

RoR: While it certainly was an extra kick in the pants to lose to the Colts in the divisional play-off game almost three seasons ago in Baltimore, I would argue that there is greater bitterness among former Colt and current Ravens fans because of the Colts leaving Baltimore than there is because of the Colts beating the Ravens over the passed 5-6 years. I also would put out there that Baltimore fans do not hold ill will toward Indy fans, rather there is bitterness towards the Irsay family for the underhanded way in which a storied and popular franchise like the Colts were taken from Baltimore.

I also think there is a lot of angst directed at the NFL for 1) allowing the Colts to leave, 2) letting the Colts keep the Baltimore franchise records after moving to Indianapolis, and 3) taking so long to get a team back in Baltimore, instead choosing to give a team to Jacksonville. It is hard for me, a Baltimore football fan who hardly remembers the Colts being in town, to hear the Indianapolis Colts being given credit for having won 5 NFL Championships after winning in '07. Or to hear Peyton Manning and his records compared to Johnny U and his. Just seems Manning should have to be compared to Indianapolis greats Jeff George, Jim Harbaugh and Jack Trudeau and that the current Colts should have no claim to the former Colts hall of famers and records. It is bad enough that the logo still exists as a constant reminder, but in my opinion the franchises should be separated historically and statistically. Enough of my rant.

18to88: 2. The Ravens' defense has been a disappointment against all teams not wearing Brown jerseys. What has been the chief culprit? F/A and coaching defections, age, injuries, something else?

RoR: Give the Ravens some credit...they dominated the red jersied Chiefs as well, limiting them to 188 total yards. But you are correct that the Ravens have not played the type of defense we have grown accustomed too. The "chief culprit?" It could be a bit of everything you mention. The Ravens have not clicked with new DC Greg Mattison's system as well as they had with Rex Ryan. They have not found a consistent replacement for Bart Scott. Trevor Pryce and Kelly Gregg look a step slower and Dominique Foxworth and Chris Carr have not performed up to expectations in the secondary. The main problem is that the pass rush has not been consistent and that has left an unspectacular collection of cornerbacks exposed.

18to88: 3. Last year it appeared that Matt Ryan was ahead of Joe Flacco. This season Flacco is surpassing Ryan in virtually every significant stat. What has been the key to his development?

RoR: I actually thought Flacco, in some ways, was more impressive than Ryan in their rookie seasons. It seems to me that Ryan has been surrounded by better offensive skill players, played a weaker schedule last year, and Flacco led his team to greater post-season success. I think Flacco's improvement can be linked to many things. He has great natural talent, an arm that can make all the throws, a great focus and work ethic, and the perfect demeanor for an NFL QB. Having a full off-season as the Ravens starter has helped and Cam Cameron has opened up a lot of the offense for Flacco and is allowing him to make more plays. I think that may be the biggest reason for Flacco's statistical improvement.

18to88: 4. Describe just how important a game this is to Ravens. What are their playoff chances if they should lose it?

RoR: It is a big game, but I think the Ravens could survive a loss to the Colts. They have 4 winnable games against Chicago and Detroit and @ Green Bay and Oakland. That puts them at 9 wins and if they can win 1 of 2 against the Steelers that could be enough to get them in the play-offs. Saying that, beating the Colts would be huge and give the Ravens some margin for error in trying to make the play-offs. The problem is, I do not much like this match-up. Manning will exploit the Ravens weakness in the secondary and without Terrell Suggs and a fully healthy Ed Reed it is going to be hard for the Ravens to slow down the undefeated Colts.

18to88: 5. What do you see as Baltimore's primary strategic advantage over Indy in this game?

RoR: I am not sure if injuries to the Colts defense count as a strategic advantage, but the Ravens will have to exploit a less than healthy secondary to stay in this game. Flacco will have to find ways to get the ball downfield to his receivers for big plays and Ray Rice will need to have a big game both rushing and receiving. Defensively, if the Ravens can limit Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark, I would be willing to roll the dice with making a pair of rookie receivers beat us. Other than that, it is going to take a big time effort from the Ravens and less than stellar performance from the Colts for the Ravens to come out on top.

DZ answers can be found here

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geez
written by WJoelSmith, November 20, 2009

I'm so ready for people from Baltimore to friggin' get over the Colts leaving. IT'S BEEN 25 YEARS FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. And in all the demonization of Bob Irsay, what gets forgotten is that a) he bought the Colts with the understanding that they were going to build a new stadium, which they then reneged on, and b) the Maryland legislature was trying to pass a bill to seize the team ownership from him via eminent domain, basically forcing his hand to move the team or risk losing it altogether. I understand them not wanting to lose their team, but they should have blamed their politicians, not Irsay.

Get it right!
written by jb, November 20, 2009

Why does everyone keeping referring to Garcon as a rookie? I understand that he did not get much playing time last year, but he is technically in his second year. I have seen it numerous times, now.

Baltimore has a bit of that Boston Victim Syndrome
written by Anonguy, November 20, 2009

EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED IS NOT OUR FAULT! THEY SUCKED, WE WERE JUSTIFIED IN NOT GOING TO THE GAMES! BOB IRSAY WAS A DRUNK! WHAT DO YOU MEAN WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING? CLEARLY, NO SANE MAN COULD LOOK DOWN ON THE MAJESTY OF BALTIMORE AND WANT TO LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAVE! *no more words, just incomprehensible sobbing* / Bittermoran As an aside, he can go take a long walk off a short pier about the records and logo and such. If they had been less about stealing the team away from him and done more like Cleaveland, they might still have all the records and whatnot. Seriously, how much do you have to suck to be outdone by the Mistake by the Lake? I'm pretty sure Ratbird fans should probably have more angst about getting dog whipped the last couple of times they played the Colts than what happened 25 friggin' years ago.

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written by Monkey Business, November 20, 2009

In all fairness, I would be in favor of, in a few years once the Colts officially have spent more time in Indianapolis than Baltimore, returning the records pre-1984 to the Ravens. Also, if the Ravens wanted to wear throwback Colts jerseys during the Colts' bye week, well, I'm okay with that.

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written by Bob M, November 20, 2009

The thing about the records that kills me is... how many NFL franchises have moved in the past 80 years? 25? more? And How many have left their team records behind? ONE! That is not the norm, it is an aberration. Requesting it is fine, but Expecting is is stupidity.

That being said, Monkey Biz's suggestion is an interesting one, but I doubt it would ever be accepted by anybody. Seeing the Ravens in Johnny U gear would actually be interesting, but would probably fan the flames of the victim mentailty rather than assuage it.

Underhanded... if Balt had kept the team via eminent domain would that have been called noble? At least he is self-aware enough to call it a rant.

Do Baltimoreans go out looking for Japanese people to kick because of Pearl Harbor? Frankly, after they won their SB they should have decided to celebrate who they had become, rather than what they had lost. At that point, they were better off with the Browns v1.1 rather than the Colts, who were not yet world champs. No? Did they walk around feeling regret and bitterness, or joy?

There is no winning this aside form waiting for people to die. And it might take multiple generations. I have a friend in NY whose dad grew up near the Dodger's stadium and used to park the players' cars in his folks driveway and on his lawn and watch over them for the team during games. He was, obviously, a star-struck kid and a die hard fan, and when they left town, two years before his daughter was born, he was heartbroken. He died about 20 years ago, but passed on his bitterness to his daughter who loves the Mets and more importantly, hates the Dodgers. She's almost 50 and a lawyer--a smart, widely-traveled person, but if she had kids, I assume the same dogma would be drilled into their skulls. It's a sickness, really, but I suppose a mild one.

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written by funtime42, November 20, 2009

Oh, right, let's give the records back - and imagine the state of the record books, pulling out the Racine/Chicago/St. Louis/Phoenix/Arizona Cardinals, Cleveland/LA/St Louis Rams, Oakland/LA/Oakland Raiders, etc.

I'd feel a bit more empathy with the Baltimore crowd if they hadn't done the same thing to Cleveland...

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written by Sadler, November 20, 2009

My partner Jeff answered that question. I wanted to stay away from that with a 10 ft pole because I have no appreciation for the situation.

As a recent convert to Baltimore football fandom, I would have thought that 14 years of a successful team would have eased the pain AND then I watched that ESPN 30 for 30 special on the Colts band. There is a generation that can't get passed it. Maybe it's because they just can't get over the guilt of stealing the Browns. Whatever. Looking back at the past too much keeps one from apprecating the future.

As a former Bills fan, can I be bitter that Ralph Wilson made a bonehead mood with Bill Polian?

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written by JeffPilson, November 20, 2009

This may be a waste of time, but I want to clarify some of the things I said in my answers since some of you have taken some things and run with them.

The question DZ asked me was whether this game was a bigger rivalry because of what happend between the cities, or because of the recent wins the Colts have over the Ravens. To suggest that 5 or 6 wins, including a play-off win, in the past few years is going to somehow make the city of Baltimore forget what happened with the Colts is assanine and laughable. You are talking about a team that had a 30+ year history, and prior to Bob Irsay it was a winning history. The Colts were the passion of the Baltimore sports scene much like the Ravens are today. I am certain that if the Colts were moved from Indianapolis, for no good reason, the reaction and sense of loss would be similar.

As far as the records and history goes...I am not asking for them to be returned to Baltimore and nowhere did I write that. I am simply saying that the Indianapolis Colts have no real claim to them. Let what the Baltimore Colts achieved be viewed as separate from what either the Baltimore Ravens or Indy Colts achieve. Johnny U and the Colts no more won anything for the city of Indianapolis than they did for the Baltimroe Ravens franchise. Ravens fans are not asking for throwback Colts unis, or for Ravens history to be augmented. We are fine with the history we are building as the Ravens. Just seems strange for the Indianapolis Colt's to claim the winning history of the Baltimore Colts when noone in Indy had anything to do with it.

And as far as Bob Irsay goes, side with the guy if you want. But the evidence remains that he was an alcoholic, who lied to the political administrations in Baltimore, and if not for a plea agreement would have liklely faced a criminal conviction for his business practices prior to owning the Colts. He was not liked by his family, coaches or players and, while in Baltimore, was one of the worst owners in professional sports. He never cared for the fans in Baltimore and it does not appear he put winning ahead of making money. Baltimore City officials were not entirely without fault in all this, but they were dealing with a highly irrational and unsuccessful owner. For more insight on Irsay I would suggest you read this SI piece from 1986: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.../index.htm

I guess it is easy to label Baltimore fans as bitter or whiny, but they were held hostage by Irsay during his stay in Baltimore and by the NFL for the 14 years in between. The city did everything the league could have asked to be considered for a franchise, but the NFL repeatedly kept football out of Baltimore, which looking back is another poor decision. You would be bitter too if you had to shoose between being an Eagles or a Redskins fan growing up.

Just wanted to shed some more light on my feelings about the Colts saga. It is not nearly as cut and dry as some of you want to make it.

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written by bob patterson, November 21, 2009

I think that Jeff makes some good points. I don't consider Unitas to be a colt (in the indianapolis sense) and I don't WANT those records. They were not built here, with our fans cheering for them. Regardless of whether the standard is to keep them in other places, the records should be returned.

As for it being really difficult to seperate them out, I don't buy that. It might seem silly to have 8 different rams record entries, but I think that a team is only a team when it is linked to a city.
The old baltimore colts were linked to baltimore and they should get their records, just like god forbid, if the colts left indy, no one could ever top marvin or p-manning's records.

More importantly, I get quite upset with colts fan when they mock and belittle the Baltimore fans who still care about this. First, even if their pain isn't legitimate, the appropriate response isn't to mock them. Second, I think their pain IS appropriate...at least from the fan perspective. Even if the city legislature "stole" the browns and is a hypocrites, the FANS did not make that decision. It was owner who moved the team away to indy and it was a different owner who relocated to Baltimore. It is quite fair for the fans of the original colts to still be upset about something being taken away from them by forces out of their control. Whether or not the city gov. of baltimore should have offered more money or whether Bob Irsay was correct are issues beyond the control of those fans. True fans love their team even when idiots like a Snyder owned them. It is quite classless to mock people for caring that a team they loved was taken away from them, regardless of the merits of the actual move itself.