Young WRs Struggling

Don't be. One of the weirder elements of Monday night's game is the sudden perception that Collie and Garcon played well. Each player had a catch of critical importance. Collie got a big third down. Garcon scored the game winning touchdown.

Obviously, they played great.

Except they didn't. And they haven't.

Collie and Garcon were each the target of three passes on Monday. Each caught one ball. The two passes traveled a total of about 5 yards in the air.

Look, both young men are talented. Garcon made an excellent play after the catch. His speed is a real asset. Collie showed good hands and a knack for the sticks. The problem is that they aren't getting open downfield. Collie is averaging less than 7 yards a reception.

Take out Garcon's great RAC on Monday. The two WRs have seen extensive action in the first two games and have combined for 6 catches for 43 yards. That's just seven yards a catch. That's two guys, over two games. Even with Garcon's play, they have 7 catches for 91 yards and a score. If that was Anthony Gonzalez by himself over two games, everyone would be a little worried about him and complaining about his lack of production. Instead, it's the total for two players and people are somehow pleased.

Winning is a great deodorant and it gives us selective amnesia.

Collie and Garcon made a couple of good plays when it counted. Both have bright futures. I like both players. Don't read this as a criticism of them. They are doing the best they can, and we have to have realistic expectations about what they can do. It's not necessarily their fault they aren't getting open. It's part of the process.

But, they are a huge problem right now, and the Colts' offense won't be reliable until Gonzo comes back. This is the Manning, Wayne and Clark show right now and a good defense will find a way to take those two players away, leaving Manning no options. It will take much more than one screen pass on a big blitz to convince me that Pierre Garcon and Austin Collie are ready to produce in the Colts' offense.

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written by djcolts, September 23, 2009

Worst case - Gonzo is out 7 more weeks. They don't play an elite defense for any of those weeks:

Cards, Seahawks, Titans (pass D is struggling), bye, Rams, Niners (improving - good - but not elite), Texans. They don't play the Jets or Baltimore until later on this year.

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written by DZ, September 23, 2009

Good point. Although I wonder if the 49ers D isn't better than Baltimore's.

The Ravens have given up a TON of points.

Hold the phone...
written by Westside Rob, September 23, 2009

OK, while I absolutely agree that their contributions have been limited so far, without seeing the coaches tape and actually verifying whether they are open or not I don't know that it's fair to make that claim. You note yourself they haven't been targeted much. Peyton certainly has been one that doesn't throw a lot to young unproven players. Garcon made another long "catch" where Peyton led him to far out of bounds but Garcon was open and made the catch it just didn't count because of the throw. I'm not blaming Manning either because you may absolutely be right that they aren't getting open but without viewing the coaches tape it's hard to know for sure.

Coaches tape
written by Westside Rob, September 23, 2009

Speaking of the coaches tape, I wish the NFL offered a subscription service to that. I don't pay for the NFL ticket though I do have DirecTV but I would give serious consideration to subscribing to a coaches tape feed of the Colts. With all the blogs out there it seems like that's a place the NFL could make a little extra money...they are already producing it anyway...

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written by DZ, September 23, 2009

You are right of course, I can't be sure without seeing the coach's tape.

I did notice two things:
1. On the back angles of several plays you could see that Collie and Garcon were blanketed.

2. Manning was looking for open men on several plays and couldn't find any. While it's true he might be less likely to target them because of their youth, it's also true that he'll throw to an open guy.

Ultimately, if it's because they aren't open or because he doesn't trust them, the result is the same...they aren't getting it done.

It will hurt the Colts against a good team. They just haven't played one yet.

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written by DZ, September 23, 2009

and yes, I would pay big money to see coaches tape. Much more than for the Sunday ticket.

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written by C Biscuit, September 23, 2009

I don't see the NFL offering the coach's tape ever. The teams get second guessed plenty as it is. Can you imagine them putting up with this scenario?

"I've reviewed the tape from last Sunday game Coach Del Rio" *eyelid twitching* "How come on 3rd and 2..." *vein bulging* "with their demonstrated tendency to blitz..." *fists clenching*

On the bright side Polian will always be able to remind Kravitz that he knows nothing.

Tamme???
written by Nickaveli, September 23, 2009

When will we see more of Jacob Tamme??? I think he had one catch against the Sparkly Kittens, but I didn't notice him on the field on Monday night. I have been excited about him since we drafted him, and he was great in the preseason. If he can cause the same mismatches that Dallas can, imagine the possibilties in the the 2 TE set. I know you guys wanna see 2 TE's also. I only see Robinson as a blocker, his big game last year was against a horrible Bengals team. He is a pretty good FB in Madden '10 thought!

Tamme +1
written by m@, September 23, 2009

When dijon gijon couldn't go up for a catch monday night (I don't remember the quarter, etc), I thought to myself that tamme would have made the catch. I may not be remembering accurately. P may have put it out of reach, but I've seen Tamme make some legit grabs, preseason & in college.

Gijon's built to block. Tamme's built to catch, just line them up side by side.

Now Dallas. Apparently he's just built to amaze. And destroy fantasy opponents.

3 TE's?
written by Nickaveli, September 23, 2009

3 TE's, 2 WR, empty backfield? Robinson blocks and we have 4 legit recieving threats???

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written by m@, September 23, 2009

yeah, when I said "line them up side by side", I meant as in look at their bodies to see what they're built for. I'd rather have Addai or The Don coming out of the backfield as the additional receiving threat.

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written by DZ, September 23, 2009

Me too. Both RBs are better options than anyone not named Wayne and Clark.

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written by AnHero, September 23, 2009

I think that Hank Baskett is they guy that should fill the void.
Just a hunch and I have my reasons, but that man is big, fast, and has great hands.

Hold the Phone
written by Bob M, September 23, 2009

DZ, the only counter-argument I have for you is 2007's San Diego game. Manning had nearly no tools--the OL imploded, 88 hurt, 93 hurt, either 11 or 44 (both?) hurt. Wayne was quintuple-teamed. 18 was throwing to guys named Emery Moorehead and Craphonso "Manos de Piedra" Thorpe. We allowed two return TDs. 18 threw eleventy-hundred picks in the rain. And if Vinny had not shanked a chip shot FG, we'd have won. Holy crap--everything went wrong and we nearly won against a good, playoff team.

Moral of my long-winded, well-known-by-everybody story: Even with 44 and 87 well covered (both doubled?) 18 will get what he needs out of the new kids. We DO have Baskett, FWIW, and 29/31 out of the backfield. Yes, Gonzo gives them their best chance to be elite again, but as long as the rest of the guys are operating at replacement level, 18 is likely to see them through most regular season obstacles. It won't be pretty, but as you have said many times, no style points in the NFL.

Come playoffs, of course, we need a full house... maybe a straight flush. But in the interim, temper your dose of reality a bit--stir in a little sugar. I am mixing metaphors like a madman right now. I feel the need to go pet a goat.

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written by DZ, September 23, 2009

Actually we talked about that SD game on the Podcast (which I am now editing and should be up in an hour).

The big difference is that in that game the WRs hadn't practiced enough and weren't just not open, they were in the wrong spots, so we are better off now.

I'm not saying all is lost or the offense will be horrible. I'm just saying you can't look at the WR production and feel good bout the state of the offense.

This WILL cause problems eventually. We're going to see a repeat of the early decade playoff losses otherwise. Blanket Marvin, take away the TE, and the Colts offense goes nowhere. That's what Tenn did. That's what the Dolphins did. That's what the Jets did.

Not to be unexpected
written by Merr, September 24, 2009

Fairly common performance level for inexperienced wideouts. Every snap just makes them that much closer to becoming a legit threats. I look at this as a positive, especially since we've won without Gonzo.

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written by npb1985, September 24, 2009

I wouldn't be too concerned about Garcon and Collie. Collie will get looks and make catches, but no one should expect 100yd games or anything. Gonzo or no Gonzo. He would be our slot receiver regardless. Pierre I am not at all worried about. He was a hair away from a touchdown Mon night and has speed. I'm really starting to like him. You are right when you say Reggie will be doubled and tripled and Clark will not be so wide open all the time. Remember we only had 1 quarter of possession last week. This week, I expect Garcon and Collie to catch more ball, just as I do Brown, Addai, Baskett, and even Tamme. We are deep and talented at receiver. We just don't have the game reps yet. Don't be too concerned, because we have guys who can and will get open eventually. They are just young and need a game or two to get comfortable. Peyton will not have anyone out there who can't get open. You can be certain of that. Of course, we are a weaker unit without Gonzo. We all know how good he is and how good he will be. His crisp routes and ability to get open will not be made up for by Garcon or Collie. Yet I think with Gonzo, we are a top 2 or 3 offense and without him, we are still a dangerous top 10 offense. It's a downgrade and we need and want him back. But guys will fill in effectively enough. Just don't expect anyone to step in and just dominate like he would have. But don't be surprised if Garcon develops into a star. This is a golden opportunity for him to show why everyone (including Peyton, who wouldn't give out Marvin comparisons lightly) was glowing about him.

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written by DemondSanders, September 24, 2009

"We are deep and talented at receiver."

I think that's a stretch. They are not deep at receiver.

...having only watched the game live
written by Doug England, September 24, 2009

I have to admit, I was thinking the same thing you wrote... that Garcon and Collie sure didn't ever look open.

That is why I found it interesting, that the article at colts.com, Garcon is saying that he was getting open the whole game. I guess we'll see, as the weeks without Gonzo go by.

I'm also interested to see if Peyton can incorporate Baskett in the offense. True, the Eagles cut him for a reason. But Peyton has never had a wide receiver with that kind of size, and if he can just "box out" the smaller corners trying to guard him, we know Peyton can fit the ball in tight places.

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written by DZ, September 24, 2009

@npb...

it takes years, not weeks for young receivers to make it in the NFL. I hope you are right, but it's not likely.

Garcon was not a hair away from a TD. He was blanketed in single coverage, which then paid off later on the screen.

Ultimately, you are right. This can be a top 10 offense without Gonzo. A good, even explosive at times offense, and when Manning is in the zone there are few better. But to be a consistently elite, top 5, top 3 O, you need more than two reliable targets.

When you start seeing Collie and Garcon with 4 and 5 catches a game instead of 1 or 2, and you see those catches take place more than a yard or two off the line, then you'll know they've made it.

They'll get there eventually. I love both players long term. I'm just realistic about where they are right now and what that means for the offense.

Give them a chance
written by Tom123, September 24, 2009

Peyton just doesnt' trust them in the 'clutch' yet. He did throw to them and yes, with the game on the line, but was obvious for most accounts that he was looking for Wayne and Clark when it was a 'must' have play. This will probably remain... but as they get more pracrice, espect to see him throw to them more.

The Colts O is based on timing, disipline and repetiion. You have to be in the right place at the right time.

In 2007, it took time when harrison was unavailable to get used to Gonzonlas and the colts struggled when they shouldn't(like agaist KC). We were 9-0, played the Patriots, and got some big injuries. The following week we had to play San Diego on the road without Harrison, Clark and Gonzolas! He was obviously off that game, his new recievers (Thorp and Moorehead) were obviously not in sync. So much of the offense is timing, he was throwing the ball where they SHOULD have been and they weren't. As a result, he was picked off 6 times that game! The irony was that we still should have won that game if not for a late missed chip shot field goal.

Likewise, when Peyton missed pre-season last year, the timing was off, peyton was recovering, and it took weeks before He got back in synch with his players.

Give Him a few weeks and by week 8, I think you'll be seeing more from Garcon. Now... Collie doesn't look very fluid. He's a possesion reciever at best. He may still surpise me but he is not another Stokely, and not even a Clark.

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written by DZ, September 24, 2009

Great point about Garcon. He was around last year, so I could buy the fact that in a few weeks he could be getting four catches a game. We'll have to wait until the Seattle game and we can get some reports from the Luke about how open he is getting or not to know for sure.

It isn't always about stats
written by MadDog, September 24, 2009

You do realize don't you that when Polian said they had good games, he wasn't solely talking about stats?

There are other things receivers do that are important: run defenders out of areas and block(Collie had a couple nice ones Monday, including one on Garcon's TD) are two that come immediately to mind.

Seriously, this is way to early in the season to make a harsh judgement like this. They are both rookies(I know Garcon was on the team last year, but his playing time at WR still basically makes him a rookie in learning the position while playing at full speed) and with the possible limited number of possessions the offense may have this year their stats may not be gaudy, but that doesn't mean they haven't played well.

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written by Ross C, September 24, 2009

also can i point out, that in miami game, we had the ball for fifteen minutes, im fairly sure that with more time, that garcon and collie would of caught more balls, remember reggie wayne didnt produce until yar three guys, gonzo on ly caught a handiful of balls in his first two games, and nmone againsts the saints.

point is most stats from this game i am going to ignore other than top, and the score quite frankly, if you only have the ball foir 15 minutes, the chances of having a poor game stat wise is increased by some %. it is a bit hard to look at this game and say things like garcon and collie only had three balls threw their way. tbh you wouldn't blame peyton for throwin g it to reggie and dallas, i trust that wr/te to qb partnership.

what i do want to take from this game, is not the stats side of things, but what i am now going to call the fundamental side of things, (blocking, breaking blocks, keeping 18 upright, how bad is charlie johnson,

so a few questions,

1. how bad was charlie johnson this past week at blocking?
2. whom is playing lt, and how well are they playing.
3. how tired did the defence get through the constant running, this is surely gotta to be one of 18 things to look out for, its my #1 this week.

4. how did the rb look running, did they have (proverbial) time to analyse where the play is meant to go, did they have to readjust, is the line getting push off the snap or is the opposite happening.

another point i have just thought. due to being off the field of 45 minutes monday, surely peyton is going to want to hit more shorter stuff come sunday, i mean manning is going to want to keep warner off the field, but if arizona can get their running game going, and its not hard to spread the field with those wr. so dz, look for collie and garcon to get more balls thrown their way.

any news on gonzo by the way.

No Comparison
written by Nickaveli, September 24, 2009

I think I can say for a fact that both Collie and Garcon are going to have better careers than Moorehead and Thorpe. Not like that is saying much though.

Ross - It's way to early to even mention Gonzo coming back. If they are saying up to 8 weeks,it will probably be everybit of that. We might start asking questions after its been 6 weeks.

Does anyone have thoughts on when Big Shot Bob is coming back? I had Week 3 scheduled all along as when we would really need him. I don't think we took h im off the PUP because we were worried about Seattle at home in week 4. He could be big against Tennesse, but week 6 is a bye. If he isn't coming back now, then when???

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written by DZ, September 24, 2009

@ Mad Dog

Their stats are less than "not gaudy", they are virtually non existent.

I'm not criticizing the players. I don't blame them for the lack of production. I'm just saying the team has a serious problem and any kind of competant defense will exploit them because of it.

My judgment was not harsh at all. The Colts need more out of the 2 and 3 WRs than 7 catches, 91 yards in two games. If this is the kind of production we are to expect out of them (and it is!), we should be worried.

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written by npb1985, September 24, 2009

@Demond

You're right. My bad. I guess I'm just used to saying that lately (I'm a ND fan, too, and with Floyd out...I'm trying to stay optimistic). But yeah, they are talented, but not deep. Otherwise Baskett probably would not be on the team. I may be overexcited about Garcon's potential, but he may have star quality. I hadn't seen open field speed like that from any of our WRs in a long time.

What is this the negative Colts blog?
written by TNCOLTSFAN, September 25, 2009

Seriously just about every blog on this website is something negative about the Colts. Second game of the season and all of sudden the Colts receivers are struggling? Take away that Garcon catch and we lose the game. Yeah they are struggling... NOT. Listen if all you have to say about the Colts is negative then dont say anything. Im beginning to think that this website is an attempt by a patriots fan to mole its way into the Colts fan base and lead people to believe that suddenly the Colts suck. The Colts have overcame injuries and horrible defenses to win games. No matter what receivers are out there on the field as long as Peyton is behind center those receivers are good and will be good.

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written by DemondSanders, September 25, 2009

"No matter what receivers are out there on the field as long as Peyton is behind center those receivers are good and will be good."

That's an absurd statement.

-1

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written by DZ, September 25, 2009

Listen man, if you want smiles and hugs, go somewhere else. We tell it like is.

Last year, the Colts had 8 straight games, and I said they would lose in San Diego because they couldn't stop the TE without Brackett and they couldn't run the ball in fourth quarter. I predicted them to lose a heartbreaking game at the end...

All of that happened.

I freaking love this team, but that doesn't mean I have to be all happy just because they won. The goal is a Super Bowl, and there are things the team has to do to get there.

If they lose and play well, we say so. If they win and play bad in some area, we say so.

We tell the truth. I never said the Colts suck. But there are things that worry me. Peyton Manning covers a multitude of sins, especially against bad teams, but come playoff time, we can't just rely on him. Why? Because he's played flipping great in the last three playoff losses, but the TEAM wasn't good enough. He was never better than against SD two years ago, but the entire team (WRs, Line, RBs, Defense) let him down.

This blog is the place you go to find the whole truth, ugly or not. If you want people to whine about not being ranked high enough in power rankings, or ripping ESPN for questioning us...go somewhere else.

I rip analysts who question the Colts because of "the coaching transition". I don't rip analysts who say, "this team needs to get better in certain areas"

FYI: Before Wayne came of age in 2003, the Colts had a parade of awful WRs. They also never won a playoff game. You need more than one guy, even with Peyton Manning as QB.

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written by TNCOLTSFAN, September 25, 2009

How is it absurd? Is it because stokley, pollard, fletcher, moorehead, utecht, haddad, and walters have all had excellent careers after leaving the Colts. The fact is what Tom Brady did with less than stellar receivers Peyton could do too.

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written by DZ, September 25, 2009

Fletcher, Moorehead, Utech, Haddad, Walters, Ishmail, Green, Pathon, ect...

Weren't any good WITH the Colts.

Stokely has been ok since he left and Pollard was old by the time he was gone.

Brady didn't do jack with less than stellar receivers...his defenses did.

If you want Manning to put up 3500 yard, 88 rating seasons, by all means, be thrilled with what we have. I'll be thrilled with it too if it comes with the 2003-2004 Pats defense.

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written by TNCOLTSFAN, September 25, 2009

Tell it like it is? Because all of sudden you are a football expert better yet the Nostrodamus of the NFL since you got one game right that half the US knew what the outcome was going to be. People like you make me sick you are a fan but yet instead of looking at the positives of the team you choose to look at the negatives that way your feelings are hurt when they dont perform the way they are supposed to be. Lesson here my friend is that the NFL is full of let downs and you get over it and look forward to next season. People like you after a loss are like "I told you so" just to feel good about something. True fans stick with the team no matter and hurt when they are let down and dont try to make up excuses just to make them feel better. Its football. Kravitz was right.... I come here for news and updates about the team since I live in TN and always come across negativity.

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written by Ross C, September 25, 2009

tncoltsfan, brady advantage of the one best defences around at the time, and he had a solid set of wr's plus one of the better coaches going, and the refs on his side when his db's commited gbh, (dont know what that is called in the us, argentina, gbh = grevious bodily harm.)

stokely, pollard, fletcher, moorehead, utecht, haddad, and walters havent really done a thing since leaving the colts. stokley nhad the "immaculate deflection" in week 1 and that has been it. and just to illustrate dz's point about the broncos, i dont think they even made the extra point. which is how fluky thry are. i dont even like them any more, (i liked them because they used to beat new england)

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written by DemondSanders, September 25, 2009

"True fans stick with the team no matter and hurt when they are let down and dont try to make up excuses just to make them feel better."

You're talking to guys who went to every home game of back to back 3-13 seasons.

Do we like saying 'I told you so'? Of course. But we believe in reasons for losing, not excuses.

This Site Isn't Negative
written by Merr, September 25, 2009

TNCOLTSFAN: I don't see this site as negative. It's his opinion. This is all subjective which means it's fairly likely that there will be many of us in disagreement. I, for one, believe Garcon and Collie are progressing nicely along an EXPECTED curve of development. Also, being open in the NFL is very difficult to perceive through the lens of network footage; therefore, I don't put much stock in whether or not I perceive someone is "blanketed" or not.

I like this blog because it challenges a lot of those with their heads in the sand. To assume a team is perfect is silly. It's much more fun to discuss where we can improve, or if we're improving, etc.

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written by DZ, September 25, 2009

Negative says: Collie and Garcon Suck! The Colts are screwed!

Truthful says: Collie and Garcon are really talented. They are coming along nicely, but they are NOT an adequate replacement for AG, and without him we will struggle against a good defense.

Merr is right, C/G are on an expected curve. And by that standard they are doing well. By the standard of "can this team beat a good defense where they are right now", I think the answer is no.

Listen, the Colts are 2-0. I'm as pleased as anyone, but don't expect me to do backflips just because they won two games by a total of 6 points against two of the ten worst teams in football.

This team has Super Bowl aspirations, but there are things that HAVE to happen. Ignoring them, pretending they don't exist, or just hoping Peyton will bail everyone out doesn't make them go away.

I won't be happy until I see Indy playing at an October 2007 level. That's elite on both sides of the ball and able to beat any team. When we are back to playing at that level on both sides of the ball, I'll shoot sunshine rays out my arse.

There are lots of sites that do happy.

We do true. This team isn't where it needs to be. The good news is that I think it can still get there. But, I'm not going to stop pointing out that they aren't there yet.

so much for the struggling wide receivers
written by tncoltsfan, September 30, 2009

wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong you were. strugglin wide receivers? biggest mistake you ever made. you judged them on 2 games. you assumed and should of known that it would come back and bite you on the ass. Gonzales better watch out or his job wont be there when he gets back.

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written by DZ, September 30, 2009

You are judging them based on one game how is that any better? They both played pretty well on Sunday, and I'm thrilled about it, but don't go overboard.

Gonzo is in no danger. Garcon has made some big plays, but his catch rate is just 54% (which is horrible). He has 5 penalties in 3 games. He has a LONG way to go.

Collie has actually been bad this year. His catch rate is at 50% (which is worse than horrible). On top of that, his DVOA (which measures value per play) is at -10.2%. That means he's about 10% worse than an average wide receiver.

Gonzo's numbers from last year: +26.2% and a catch rate of 72%.

The young guys still have a LONG way to go.

Please get some facts before you come in here saying crazy stuff.